Logos: Father or Son?

Melchisidec Meeting Abraham

Melchisidec Meeting Abraham

I’ve been asked several times to further explain myself in regards to what I was teaching on “let us make man in our own image.” I apologize for the mis-undertanding I have caused. This happened because I have went through a change of thought and mind that others have not witnessed. My writings online are typically for the purpose of causing those outside of the message to think about their beliefs and present teaches based on scripture alone.  However, many more message believers are beginning to read what I have written so I want to change my approach at this point in time.

There are several different understandings of the beginning of the Son, whether he had a pre-incarnate existence or had his beginning in the womb of Mary. However, since how I came to my understanding should genuinely be questioned I wanted to submit the quotes and explanation below. This is not intended to tie all the loose ends together. This is the journey of understanding the Lord led me through.

Most who are questioning already believe the message. Those who believe the Trinity or Jesus-only may be thrown for a loop by this, so approach this with that.

I went through a process in understanding the Logos and the beginning of the Son of God. When I first began my walk in the message I viewed the Son as having a pre-incarnate state. However, there were several quotes that I began reading that made me uneasy with that understanding. Believe me, I wanted to keep things simple, but as I read these quotes my conscience began to be pricked that for some reason I was not seeing the whole picture. Basically, what began to get me thinking was the places you see below where bro. Branham states that the Logos is the Father, the Logos was the anointing upon Jesus and also that Melchisedec is the Father not the Son. How could I reconcile this with the fact that bro. Branham stated that the Logos that went out from God was the Son of God? I will submit to you the quotes below.

Hebrews Chapter 1 57-0821 P:48

Now, here’s what happened. Oh… Excuse me; I–I–I just get on this… This just gets me right where I love it. See? The Logos, and this great Fountain; this great Fountain of Spirit which had no beginning or no end, this great Spirit begin to form in the creation; and the Logos that went out from It was the Son of GodIt was the only visible form that this Spirit had. And It was a theophany, which means a body, and the body was like a man.Moses saw It when It passed through the–by–by the rock. And he looked at It, said, “It looked like the hind part of a man.” It’s the same type of body that we receive when we die here, “If this earthly tabernacle be dissolved, we have one already waiting.” That was it. And that was the Theophany which was the Son of God. That Son, that Logos became flesh because we were put in flesh. And the Theophany, theLogos, became flesh here among us, and It was nothing else but the dwelling place; for that entire Fountain dwelt in Him. Oh, do you see it? There it is. That was the One that in…

HEBREWS_CHAPTER_FOUR  JEFF_IN 09-01-57 Evening

43 Jesus said, “Hear ye, O Israel, I’m the Lord your God,” one God, not three gods. In Africa they baptize once for the Father, and once for the Son, and once for the Holy Ghost. And then a poor Jew comes around and say, “Which one of them is your God?” Which one is, the Father, Son, or Holy Ghost?” They’re all three One. The Bible said they were One. Jesus was a house that God lived in; the Bible said that–that, I Timothy 3:16, “Without controversy (That’s argument.) great is the mystery of godliness. For God was manifested in the flesh, seen of angels, received on, and preached, believed on, and received up into glory.” God was. The Bible said, “His Name shall be called Emmanuel,” which is by interpretation, “God with us.” The Bible said that Jesus, in Him dwelt the Fullness of the Godhead bodily. As we had it the other night, God in the beginning was Spirit. And then from God went out the Logos, or the Theophany which was a form of a man called the Son of God (prefigured). He came in earth in a body of flesh, even before He came in Jesus Christ. Now, swallow that one once, brother. I’ll prove it to you. When–when Moses saw Him, he said, “Let me see Your form, Lord.” And God hid him in a rock.

CHRIST_REVEALED_IN_HIS_OWN_WORD  JEFF_IN 08-22-65 Morning

37 To misinterpret Jesus in the form of God in a man you would make Him–you would make Him one god out of three. To misinterpret Jesus Christ being the Word, you’d make Him one god out of three, or you’d make Him the second person in a godhead. And to do that, you’d mess the whole Scripture up. You’d never get nowhere. So It must not be misinterpreted. And if you say that a certain thing, you put an interpretation on It, and you apply It to another time or It’s been applied to another time, you also make an incorrect interpreting. If anybody misinterpret Jesus Christ in the Bible of not being God Himself, make Him the second person, or, one god out of three, this would upset every Word in the entire Bible. It would break the first commandment, “Thou shalt not have any other god before Me.” All right. It would make the whole Christian race a bunch of pagan worshippers worshipping three different gods. See what kind of a Bible you’d have? Then it’d make us what the Jews say we are: said, “Which one of them gods is your god?” See? So you see, you can’t–you mustn’t misinterpret the Bible, for Jesus Himself is the Interpretation of the Bible when He’s made manifest in the age that the part of His Body is being made manifest. If it’s a hand age, it must be a hand; it can’t be a head age. If it’s a voice age, well then, it can’t be a foot age. See? And now, we’re at the eye age.

The Logos was the Son and the Logos is the only visible form of the invisible God. There are not two logos or three logos, just one. Then we find out that the Logos was called the prefigured Son of God. Also, to misinterpret the Son of God being the Logos would make him one God of out three. Of course, he said the Logos was the Son, but here he says there is a right way to interpret it and a wrong way to interpret it. Again, he says the Logos was the Son “prefigured.” Here is the definition of prefigured.

pre·fig·ured, pre·fig·ur·ing, pre·fig·ures

1. To suggest, indicate, or represent by an antecedent form or model; presage or foreshadow: The paintings of Paul Cézanne prefigured the rise of cubism in the early 20th century.
2. To imagine or picture to oneself in advance.

To follow that example of cubism; it did not exist at the time of Paul Cezanne, but his work spoke of it before hand and was the precursor to it. The Son of God had not been born at the time of Melchisidec or the time of the creation of the world, but the logos spoke of the Son of God before his birth. How can I saw the Son wasn’t born yet? Please withhold judgment for now and wait until you read a few of the quotes below. The logos was the antecedant form or the model that foreshadowed the Son of God that was brought forth in the fulness of time, made of a woman, made under the law. (Gal. 4:4) God appointed the ages in the Son (Heb 1:2), God created the world by Jesus Christ (Eph. 3:9) and he is firstborn of all creation, the first born from the dead, he is before all things and by him all things consist. He was glorified before the world began. We also were glorified before the world began. (Rom 8:30, Heb. 4:3, John 17:22) We existed with him in the mind of God. The Lamb was slain in the mind of God before the world began. We were chosen in Christ before the world began.

THE_SEED_SHALL_NOT_BE_HEIR_WITH_THE_SHUCK  LA_CA 04-29-65 Breakfast

28 ‘Cause all this was in the Logos: the whole Word of God, the whole Bible, for every age. And as the Logos begin to breathe upon the earth, there come marine life, and building up to bird life, on up to animal life. And finally there come something in the representation, or looked like the thing that was brewing–brooding over it: God, a man in the very image of God. That man fell, like the seed has to fall. And then God begin to brood over that after the fall. He brought up a–a Enoch; He brought up Elijah; He brought up a Moses; He brought up prophet after prophet, trying to restore that image again. And, finally, upon the earth came the genuine Image of God Himself again, which was God, the Logos made flesh and dwelt among us. Now, that same Logos has a part; He’s got a Bride, and the same Logos, this Word that cannot be tampered with, is brooding over the churches today, trying to bring back the Word to Its full manifestation. Which the–the prophets was carriers to that Seed, and the church denominations has been carriers to the Seed now. Now, notice quickly, but like the shuck hugs, holds in the Seed now, then it leaves her… Jesus was God. He was. His Father was the great Logos Itself. And He could not pour It all in Moses, for he was a prophet.

The Son of God, who was born of a woman in the fullness of time, under the Law, is not one for one with the logos. The logos went forth in the beginning of time and that logos was the revelation of the Father and it was in fact the Father, but it foreshadowed or prefigured the Son of God. The Logos was in, upon and anointed Jesus.

QUESTIONS_AND_ANSWERS_2  JEFF_IN 08-23-64 Evening

49 So I don’t want to call myself anything but your brother. I am your brother, and you just regard me as Brother Bill, or Brother Branham, or whatever you want to do about that. That–that’s fine. That’s–that’s any… What you believe, keep that to yourself. You see? And now, what was that other question? I get so wound up in these, I forget what the things were. One of them was, “Was I the Son of man?” and… Here it is I believe. “… the Son of man or was the Pillar of Fire the Son of man?” No. The Pillar of Fire is the Anointing. The Pillar of Fire… Now, this may go a little deep unless it’s some of you theologians, Dr. Vayle, probably Brother here, and some of these ministers here from Arkansas, and the–my good friends around, they’d probably know. Now, that Pillar of Fire is the Logos that went out of God, the Logos, which is actually the attribute of the Fullness of God. When God become into a form to where It could be seen, It was the anointing of the great Spirit that went forth, Its condescending, coming down, God, the Father, the Logos that was up over Israel, that…

QUESTIONS_AND_ANSWERS_2  JEFF_IN 08-23-64 Evening

50 He was holy, could not bear sin. There had to be a blood offering right in Eden. Then that Logos become flesh and dwelt among us; and where this Logos dwelt in a human body, which was the Sacrifice… When man was made in the image of God… And then God came down in the image of man to redeem man; that brought man and God together. Heavens and earth hugged and kissed each other; God and man embraced each other as Fatherhood and Sonship when the Logos became flesh and dwelled among us. Jesus said, “I came from God, and I go to God.” Is that right? After His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension, when the body was taken up to set at the right hand of God… Now, I don’t mean God’s got a right hand; God’s a spirit. But at the “right hand” means “in power and authority of God.” That in that Name everything in heaven is named after It and subject to It. Everything in earth is named after It and subject to It, a Name above all names, Jesus Christ. Now, this Logos that was in Him, which was the Spirit of God, the Anointing, through the sanctifying grace of the Blood, brought many sons to God, which is anointed with this same Logos.

QUESTIONS_AND_ANSWERS_2  JEFF_IN 08-23-64 Evening

51 Now, on the day of Pentecost It come down, that Pillar of Fire, and broke apart like that, and tongues of fire set upon each of them, not their tongues, but tongues of fire set upon each of them, a elected, selected group, identified by this Pillar of Fire, showing that God had separated Himself into man. Do you get it? God, the Logos, separating Himself into men; God, not in one person, He’s in His Church universal. That’s the reason Jesus said, “The works that I do shall you also, more…” Now, I know the King James says, “greater,” but the right translation there is “more than this shall you do.” God was bottled and confined in one Man, Jesus Christ. But now He’s bottled and confined in the whole universal Church of the living God. Right now, while God is here speaking with us in our hearts, He’s in Africa; He’s in Asia; He’s in Europe; He’s in England. Wherever believers are gathered together, there He is in the midst of them. Now, after His death, burial, and ascension, and the coming of the Holy Ghost, Paul on his road down–which was Saul–to Damascus, he was struck down by a Pillar of Fire, the Logos. And that Jew would’ve never called that Pillar of Fire, “Lord,” unless he knew It was the same Logos that his people followed through the wilderness. See? Now, that was not the Son of man; that was the Logos.

QUESTIONS_AND_ANSWERS_2  JEFF_IN 08-23-64 Evening

52 Now, we say this with reverence, and love, and respect. See? As Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever, and also that in the last days, as it was before Lot’s time, or in Lot’s time in Sodom, so shall it be in the day that the Son of man reveals Himself again, revealing Himself. Now, in this last day the Logos that was upon Jesus–which He has become from that back to the Pillar of Fire again and has descended down on the earth to (I was going to say something, but I watch the tape. They wouldn’t believe that if you told them. It wouldn’t make any difference. They… People wouldn’t believe it, but I’ll omit that)–but has come down for, like an investigating judgment goes on. And now, this great Pillar of Fire that’s absolutely identified even by scientific cameras, that’s here on the earth today. There’s the picture of It hanging there. I believe it’s still there, isn’t that right? Is it there? Scientifically proven by the best we got. George J. Lacy, the head of the FBI for fingerprint and documents, said, “I called it psychology myself, Reverend Branham, but,” said, “the light struck the lens. I put it under ultra ray lights and had an examination here for four or five days. And the light struck the lens. And this lens won’t take psychology.” Now, that’s identified.

Here we see the Logos spoken of by William Branham as being the following;

1. God the Father
2. in Jesus
3. the Spirit of God
4. the Anointing
5. upon Jesus
6. not the Son of man

QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.GENESIS_  JEFF.IN  COD  WEDNESDAY_  53-0729

18-43 He got all those things together, and made…?… made all the other things, all the animal life, the birds, the bees, the monkeys, and whatever it was, put them all here on earth. And then He asked this question now. ” Let us ( Who Father and  Son ) make man in Our own image.”

Now, if a man was made something like that little sacred Light yonder, or something like that, It could not be seen (which is a spiritual Being). He manifested or unfolded Himself a little more to make a trinity of Himself by Father Son , and Holy Spirit. And here was God, unfolded Himself now, down into “let us make man (which was His son , an offspring from Him) man in Our own image (He was a supernatural being.), and let him have dominion over the cattles of the field, and so forth.”

Now, the man led the man–led the–the cattle and everything, just like the Holy Spirit leads a real true believer today. The Voice of God out there… The voice of man, rather, would speak and say… call the cattle this way, call the sheep over to this pasture, call the fishes to this water. See, he had dominion; everything obeyed him.

In 1953 he states that the “let us” was Father and Son.

A_SUPER_SIGN  JEFF_IN 12-27-59 Morning

26 That’s a sign, that every unrepented sinner will perish in the judgment, that the righteous shall be saved by the mercy of God. He gave another sign at the burning bush. What was it when He caught His runaway prophet? “I have heard the cries of My people, and I’ve remembered My covenant”? He gave another sign there, that He was a covenant-keeping God, that He remembered everything that He said, every promise that He made. He gave a sign at the burning bush, “And I’ve come down to deliver them.” Watch God in His ways of work. When He created the heavens and earth, He called the Angels together, and He said, “Let us.” Every place in the Scripture where He did anything mostly, “Not Me, but My Father.” But when it come to the plan of redemption, He came alone; nobody was with Him. He was the only One that could come. An Angel couldn’t do it. Another man called His son, couldn’t do it. One called something else, a holy virgin, or a holy mother, or–or some saint, couldn’t do it. God had to come.

Here in 1959 he said he gathered his angels together and said, “let us…”

CHRIST_REVEALED_IN_HIS_OWN_WORD  JEFF_IN 08-22-65 Morning

70 And He ever lives to make His Word live what It said It would do for that age. He is alive. He was alive in the Old Testament, manifested. I just want to–to let you see a little something here if you can stand it. Watch. When Jesus was manifested in the Old Testament as we believe it… Now, you preachers out there, you can argue with it, do whatever you want to, but I’m talking from my–what I think. See? When Jesus was manifested in the Old Testament in a theophany, in the Person of Melchisedec, not a priesthood, but the Person, the Man… See? For this Man had yet not been born, but He was in a theophany so He had no father, no mother. He was God Himself. He was manifested in the form of a Man called King of Salem, which is King of Peace and King of Righteousness. See? He was Melchisedec. He had neither father nor mother, beginning of days of ending of life. See? It was Jesus in a theophany in the form of a man. Could you go that? All right.

HEBREWS.CHAPTER.SEVEN.1_  JEFF.IN  HEB  SUNDAY_  57-0915E

23 Now, now if you’ll notice as we read the next verse. See? “First, being by interpretation, King of righteousness.” That’s not where I want to do. The–the 3rd verse, “Nor end of life.”…but made like unto the Son of God. Now, He was not the Son of God, for, if He was the Son, He had a beginning. And this Man had no beginning. If He was the Son, he had to have both father and mother. “And this Man had neither father nor mother. But He was made like unto the Son of God.” …abideth a priest continually. 

FUTURE_HOME_OF_THE_BRIDE  JEFF_IN 08-02-64

76 Just exactly like it did on there, upon the earth. Jesus was part of that earth that the Holy Ghost descended upon (Is that right?) and remained upon Him forever. It never can leave Him, It’s always there (He and God are one.), always has to remain. And so John saw the holy City, the New Jerusalem descending like a comet or a–a dove, coming down out of heaven and settling upon a redeemed entire earth. To do what? To claim every attribute that He made the earth for; every man that was represented in the eternity and every woman is redeemed then. She’s been scoured and burned by fire; Jesus in His fiery temptations in the wilderness for forty days… After that, notice, it was ready for His ministry then. Think of it, the Holy Ghost descending upon earth, Jesus, and that holy Blood. Now watch. I hope I don’t go too deep for you. See? The holy Blood that was created by God, the Blood, the Life, the Creation of God: Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. Oh, my. You see it? God made in creation… He was Spirit. The Bible said He’s the beginning of the creation of God. How did He begin? In the wombs of a woman, which is what? The woman is… not like… How them blind people can’t see the serpent’s seed right here. See? Eve was put here on the earth, and before Satan ever touched her or anything else, God said to them, “Multiply and replenish the earth.” It’s right.

Here he states that 1. Jesus had not yet been born and 2. that he had his beginning in the womb of a virgin. So, to find the balance, the theophany there is Jesus yes, but before he was brought forth in birth as a separate person from God. Melchisidec was the logos that went out from God. The manifestation of God himself. That manifestation in fact is Jesus, but not Jesus as a separate person from God himself. It was simply the theophany of God, the logos. It was Jesus pre-figured or you could say it was Jesus proleptically. Now, this can be somewhat confusing, it was for me for years, but another way to say it is that it was the life of the Son that was in the Logos, but the Logos itself was the Father’s manifestation and expression. The only visible form the Father had. That life of the Son that was in the Logos later had a beginning and was born through a virgin.

Proleptical means the anachronistic representation of something as existing before its proper or historical time, as in the precolonial United States.

The logos was the going forth of the Son of God, but not in the sense that it was a separate person from God or a pre-incarnate Son. It was the self-manifestation and revelation of God. It was the only way the invisible Spirit could be seen to the spiritual eye. It was God limiting himself to a form in which he could be revealed to mankind. Again, the life of the Son was in the Logos. He was prefigured by the various appearances of God in the form of the logos.

To put it all together;

1. the Logos was the Son – the only visible form the invisible Spirit had
2. the Logos prefigures the Son
3. the Logos is the Father’s self-revelation and visible expression – it is the Father
4. the Logos was upon, in and anointed the Son
5. Melchisedec was Jesus in theophany in a man even though Jesus had not yet been born
6. When did Jesus begin? In the womb of a virgin.
7. the Logos was not the Son of man

Take it back to the bible, take it back to the message, pray over it and come to your own understanding. It’s important for all of us to be convinced in our own hearts.


9 thoughts on “Logos: Father or Son?

  • Hi Jason,

    Not to put too fine a point on it, your previous post started with a quote from Brother Branham, not scripture. I think it’s a little misleading to say that you’re writing to those outside the message based on scripture alone.

    With regard to the quotes you have raised, I’ll have to read over and pray about those. I have heard or seen most of them at one time or another. I don’t want to pit one quote against another, nor pit the scripture against the message. I know you agree that it all has to dovetail or we’ve got a misunderstanding somewhere.

    I’m not looking to start an argument, but I do feel like when things get put out for public consumption (like on the internet) it is important to either as the author write a disclaimer that this is an opinion or as the reader, write a respectful response if there is another way of looking at the issue at hand.

    Respectfully,
    Nate

  • Hey Jason,

    Why complicate it? The Father is imortal, invisible, the only wise God. The Logos is how God expresses himself in a visible form. So the Logos expresses God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to us. As the Father, being seen in the wilderness (God above us) leading his people. Jesus identified himself with that. As the Son, (God with us) coming to die for us. As the Holy Spirit (God in us) saying I will be in you. Tons of Scriptures to support it. Reach out to others by the Bible as you say.

    D

  • Hey brother, The purpose is definitely not to complicate it, but to take what was taught in each aspect and understand it clearly, which of course, I realize is what all of us try to do, its definitely not unique to me. 😉
    I guess one difference is that I would describe the difference between the Son who was born of Mary and the Logos that came upon him and was in him – ie the Father, the invisible, eternal God. Jesus was anointed with the Spirit (Logos as bro. Branham put it in that quote) at his baptism. So, yes, you are speaking the truth in what you say and of course I agree with you, but would simply point out a little more of the difference between Father and Son. Of course, when you see the Son you see the Father, he is the visible expression of God. But still to understand the difference and yet the sameness.

    JESUS.CHRIST.THE.SAME.YESTERDAY.TODAY.AND.FOREVER_ CAMPBELLSVILLE.KY SATURDAY_ 55-0806

    And with such a shifting condition as we’re in today, how can faith rest itself? You got to come back to the Bible, back to the truth. And when Jesus, a carpenter’s Son, physically speaking, when He come to the earth here that’s all He was known of, and the day that when John baptized Him, God a vindicated Him. God spoke from the heavens. John saw Him coming in the form a dove, and said, “This is My beloved Son in Whom I’m pleased to dwell.” The right translation there is, “In whom I am pleased to dwell in.” Jesus immediately anointed with God, He was just a man till that time, but now He becomes the God-man.Someone telling me here not long ago, as I many times referred to it in this shiftless day, that He was just a prophet, He was a good man. He was more than that. He was the anointed God. The Bible said, “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.” God in Christ. Amen.

    WHAT.IS.THE.WORKS.OF.GOD_ LA.CA SATURDAY_ 59-0404
    E-20 Now, when Jesus made Hisself known to the Jew… Let’s just look into the Scripture and see what He did to the Jew to make Himself known as the Messiah. I was reading out of the book of Saint John. Let’s just take Saint John, the 1st chapter. And as we read, we find out after He was tempted in the wilderness, came out, He was anointed with the Holy Spirit, was in Him. “John bare record, seeing God descending out of heaven like a dove, a voice saying, ‘This is My beloved Son in Whom I’m pleased to dwell in.'” And He dwelt in Christ. God, Jehovah, the Father dwelt in His Son Jesus Christ, tabernacled there, manifesting Himself, showing the world what He was.
    That’s the reason His disciples couldn’t understand Him. They say, “You speak in riddles.” It was sometime Jesus speaking, sometime the Father speaking.

    1. He became the God-man when the Spirit came upon him at his baptism and

    2. God, Jehovah, the Father dwelt in his Son Jesus Christ at his baptism.

    So, of course, not at all trying to complicate it, just trying to understand each aspect properly. Hope that makes sense.

    Thanks.

  • Well, Jason, I still think you are missing something. If Jesus was only God when the Logos came on him, how then are we saved by Gods own blood? For the Spirit left him in the Garden. Have a look up one of my favorite quotes “Jehovah crying” The Jews all sought to stone him because he made himself God – the Father! He said before Abraham was, I AM. One of the greatest revelations is that Jesus of the New is Jehovah of the old. He not only said “when you see me, you see the Father” but also “My Father and I are one.” One person of God, expressing himself in different bodies, different forms, with Jesus being the fullness of the Godhead bodily. I’m sure you know the scriptures.

    Maybe you should consider this – that there may be more than one meaning to the phrase “Son of God”. If the Logos is the only visible attribute or expression of the Father, then that could be termed the Son of God. So now, we have the invisible Father God, filling all time and space, forming himself into a Son God, by which he relates to those he created in this bubble called time. So all that is in the Father God is poured into the Logos – the Son of God. “Glorify thou me Father with the Glory we had before the earth was” – The Logos and the invisible father speaking together. This is now the “us” that created the worlds.

    So now, everything that is in God is now starting to be expressed in a work of art we call the creation. And the beginning of the creation of God is the Logos – the Son. In the Logos God places his desire to be a Father, to be a Healer, to be a Son, to be the Holy Spirit, The rose of Sharon, and so on, and so on. So now we have the Logos in the Old Testiment acting out the desire of God to be a Father. The desire of God to express the seven names of Jehovah. To be a healer. To do this, the Logos uses different Bodies – the Pillar of Fire, Melchesidic, the Wheel within a Wheel. God changing his mask. Remember now, the Father God has been seen by no man at any time – so any time someone sees God, they are seeing the Son of God – the visible attribute of God.

    So, in the fulness of time, there comes the Fulness of the Godhead bodily. Jesus is born into the human race, but he is totally God – even from his birth. Totally God yet God as a man. Not in a man, but as a man. Tempted in all points as we are. Who can tempt God to do evil? But God allowed himself to be limited in human flesh so he could partake in our temptations. So on the river Jordan, the Spirit of God descends on him as a Dove, and a voice is heard. What is the Dove? An expression of the Logos. What is the voice? An expression of the Logos. What is the man Jesus? An expression (but the most complete one) of the Logos. So, the spirit Logos tabernacles in Jesus, the Human Logos. Both are expression of the invisible God. But one is acting the role of the Father, God above us, and one in the Son, God with us. Neither are God the Father, who no man has seen at any time. But they are both God the Father expressing himself to us.

    Do you see what I mean? I’ll send you a diagram 🙂

  • I see some aspects of it. I do have a few questions, but first.

    “If Jesus was only God when the Logos came on him, how then are we saved by Gods own blood?”

    When God begets a Son that is the life of God in that Son. Genetically Jesus’ had God’s blood flowing through his veins.

    There is a balance to keep. Here are a few quotes I look at to balance those things out.

    “The man the body was not deity, but deity was in the body.”

    “Now, they was looking at that little body that was borned of Mary. See? That wasn’t God; that was the Son of God, but God was in that body.”

    In what manner was Jesus not God?

    Why did Jesus speak of his Father as a separate individual? Just as bro. Branham said he was not able to do the works, but that the Lord God does the works. Jesus said, I can’t do these works, its my Father that dwells in me. Its the same principle as with the prophets except the prophets are not virgin born and are not the full expression of God as Jesus was.

    “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” John 14:10

    QUESTIONS.AND.ANSWERS.ON.THE.SEALS_ JEFF.IN SUNDAY_ 63-0324M
    520-5 {380} It’s not me could take a little boy here laying–the doctors laying him on his back, with heart trouble tonight, and say, “Thus saith William Branham…” No. “THUS SAITH THE LORD, it’s finished.” And bring him down to the doctor the next day and it’s all gone.
    A kid with leukemia, till its eyes were bulged out, and yellow all over, and its stomach… until they taken it to the hospital to give it blood and things to even get it here; and in five minutes time, cry for a hamburger, and take it back to the doctor the next day and can’t even find a trace of it. That’s Thus Saith William Branham? That’s THUS SAITH THE LORD. Yet He is an individual different from me, but the only way He’s expressed is through me. See?
    That’s how Jesus and the Father was. Jesus said, “It’s not Me that doeth the works, it’s My Father that dwelleth in Me.” Now, the Son of man shall ascend from heaven, which now is in heaven. See? What was it? He was omnipresent because He was God.

    Here he says they are the same person, yet Jesus was an individual different from the Father. So, these are the things that I’m looking at.

    So if he is God totally from his birth in what manner was he just a man prior to his baptism?

    A lot of different aspects to balance out, for sure.

  • Here is something that I think you should consider. God has no limits. But when God formed into the Logos in the beginning, he took on himself limits – now he is visible.

    Now in the fulness of time, God himself takes on even more limits – limiting himself to be a member of the human race. And when God takes on those limits he is not a different individual, he is the same individual, but with limits.

    So when Jesus said – it is not I, but my Father that dwelleth in me, he is not saying that he is not God, but that in his present role he cannot do those things – only by his interaction with the spirit of God in a different role can he do these things. See, if you say Jesus was an individual, then you are making him a seperate being from God. And if Jesus is not God through and through then all our hopes are in vain. Jesus is Jehovah.

    /quote
    Then as I turned and started along a familiar little pathway by the side of a pasture that crossed over to an L-shape in the woods, and something strange took place. All my experiences, I’ve never had anything like that. I looked at the top of the hill to my left from where I was standing, and there, coming up out of like the top of the hill, came three rainbows. And they were running some thirty-foot high. First, I looked and seen the Light and I just turned back, because I thought it might be the sun raising. On the second thought, it wasn’t towards the sun; it was towards the south. And another thing, it was smooth, cloudy, rain, raining all over. That was August the twenty-fifth, last Friday morning, and you know how it was raining. And it’s smooth clouds everywhere.
    24 And I looked again, and there it was, growing taller and taller, three rainbows. I took off my hat. I set down my gun. I started walking towards it with my hands up. Something just seemed to tell me, “This is close enough.” I was going to set down and take off my boots that I had on, to see if I could walk a little closer. But I got within a few yards of it, and I seen the color of it, misting like a fog moving around. I stood still for a few moments. It was coming right out of the top of the little mountain. And I watched, as the three (one to the right, one to the left, and one in the center) running down into one bowl like… Ever what it was, was alive. It was moving and making Its motions. And I stood there just as it was graying dawn.
    I turned and looked again, and I screamed out, “O God, what would You have Your servant know?”
    Just then the Spirit of the Lord came in and said, “Jesus of the New Testament is Jehovah of the Old, He only changed His mask from Spirit to man.” That was confirming, of course, my message of Him, letting me know, assured that these thirty-one years hasn’t been in vain.
    /end quote

  • I agree with you in part, only that there is more to the picture of the relationship between Father and Son than just that the Son is a mask that the Father put on. Truly that is the case, but there is a bit more than the Son being a mask. Certainly Jesus Christ is God, but not in a Jesus-only sense nor a Trinitarian sense.
    Bro. Branham said that he is not a oneness or trinitarian, but that he stands in between them. If the difference is merely that the Son is a role that God played out then that would mean to me that Jesus was his own Father.
    Where I am at with my understanding is because I need to answer the questions, “How is Jesus not his own Father?” and “How is this teaching different than the oneness teaching?”
    While I agree with many points that the United Pentecostal Church makes in its teaching I don’t feel we can stop there. http://www.upci.org/doctrine/60Questions.asp
    These are my feeble attempts at describing this difference. How do you describe the difference from the oneness teaching?

  • How is Jesus his own Father? In the same way that the Logos and the imortal, invisible God have a father/son relationship is the same way that the Logos and Jesus have that relationship. The limitless God formed himself into a God with limits in order to relate to us – the Logos. Then the Logos formed into a human being in order to live with us and die for us.

    Look up oneness a little. I think you will find that they baptise in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, believing that Jesus is the Father, is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Thus Brother Branham counters – is Jesus his own father? The truth is slightly different – Jesus is God in the role of the Son, not in the role of the Father or the Spirit.

    http://www.gospeloutreach.net/opgospel.html#unbi

    Have a look at the upci link again, at questions 13 and 14. This is where the differences start to creep in. They are identifying the immortal, invisible God with the manifestation of God in the form of the Logos. In one way this is true, but if you limit the infinite Father God to the form of the Logos, you are confusing things. Jesus is not the Father – he is the Logos in the form of the Son (God amoung us). Jehovah is not the immortal invisible God, he is the Logos in the form of God the Father.

    Remember now, when John saw the one on the Throne in heaven, he did not see Jesus Christ, for Jesus is the Lamb making intercession. The upci is pointing you to believe that it was Jesus Christ on the throne. (q22) The difference to me is clear – if you make your focus on the man Jesus only, and do not see God in his different offices and roles, you will loose your place in scripture pretty quickly.

    So when Brother Branham taught baptism, he taught that the one name includes the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is the standing between the two trees.

Leave a Reply

Get our news and testimonies
in your inbox

Subscribe to our mailing list and get persecution news and missions updates to your email inbox.